"Sun, Soil, Cépage."
Curtis winemaker Chuck Carlson talks about making Rhône style wines in the Santa Ynez Valley.
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May 28th, 2008 Chuck Carlson came to Santa Barbara County in 1981 after graduating from Cal. State, Fresno with a major in Agricultural Science and a specialty in Enology and Viticulture. He started at Zaca Mesa Winery as a lab technician, and was quickly promoted to assistant winemaker. In 1995, he joined the newly created Curtis Winery. |
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Since then, Chuck has been developing the vineyard and wine programs at Curtis Winery. His passion for Rhône varieties led to his election, in 2004, as President of the Rhône Rangers. This is a deserved position as Carlson has been a pioneer of both Rhône varieties and of viticulture in Santa Barbara County.
The Early Years.
redwinebuzz.com: Who was the winemaker at Zaca Mesa [Winery] when you started there?
Chuck Carlson: It was Ken Brown.
rwb: How do you feel he influenced you as a winemaker, if at all?
CC: I think he definitely influenced me. There are things we did then that we still do in part today. But I would say all of our wine making styles have changed dramatically from that time - as have cellar practices.
It was an interesting period. Ken was in a somewhat transitional phase and he actually left in 1984. So I worked with him for three years, there, at Zaca Mesa. I think for me, from a winemaking standpoint, I learned about making white wines balanced (Ken had a nice touch with Chardonnay), and looking at these fermentations and knowing how much oak, and ageing [was appropriate]. I take more of that away from my time with Ken more than anything else.
At that time, this whole area was in a very rapid growth rate, and [we were] discovering new things. I think, early on, the way this area kind of got established was that we planted a wide variety of things not really knowing what would do well and what would grow well. In the 1980s, and into the ‘90s, we learned so much about the small microclimates and more about the soil and what varieties really did well in these certain areas.
I think his influence on me was also in building my understanding that these cooler climate varieties did better in the Santa Maria Valley. Zaca Mesa was really the middle ground as far as being cool climate versus a moderate climate, more of the Santa Ynez Valley.
We experimented with all varieties. We were the first producers of Syrah in Santa Barbara County. That led to my passion and pursuit of Rhône varieties, as well. We were still making all sorts of varieties then, and it wasn’t until well after Ken left that we changed everything to really just a Rhône focus.
rwb: What variety would readers be surprised to hear had been tried in that area [Foxen Canyon]?
CC: We had Zinfandel there.
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rwb: Really? How did that do? CC: It did not do very well because we have a lot of marine influences and get those cold foggy mornings. That is just perfect for propagating botrytis and rot in those Zinfandel clusters because they’re very large and compact and thin-skinned. It was a problem. We were growing those on the big [Californian] Sprawl type canopy, where you didn’t get a lot of air flow through the canopy itself, and the clusters were hidden under leaves, and they didn’t get dried out until late in the day. |
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A Spanish-styled building houses both the Curtis winery and tasting room. |
Soil.
Although Ambassador’s Vineyard had already been planted five years prior to his joining Curtis, Chuck oversaw the planting of the Crossroads Vineyard and developed the Curtis estate.
rwb: So let’s take a look at your location. You’re in the Foxen Canyon part of the Santa Ynez Valley…
CC: Yes, Curtis is at the southern end of the Foxen Canyon wine trail.
rwb: I wanted to get a better sense of the the location of your vineyards.
CC: Curtis is located on Foxen Canyon Road – south of the fork with Zaca Station Road. Ambassador’s Vineyard [20 acres] is up on the same mesa [west side of Foxen Canyon Road] as the rest of Firestone Vineyards. It is just west of the [Firestone] winery itself. It’s the westernmost portion of Firestone Vineyards – at the southern end of their holdings.
Crossroads Vineyard is slightly to the northeast, closer to the fork of the two roads, with frontage on Foxen Canyon road. After the sale, this vineyard remained in Firestone hands and grows 6 acres of Syrah, 6 acres of Grenache and a small amount of Roussanne.
Ownership of Ambassador's vineyard changed hands with the sale of Firestone but we’re still able to source fruit from there.
rwb: So you have a long-term contract to source from there, then?
CC: It’s nothing in writing, but we have an agreement that as long as we want to source fruit from there, we can.
After the sale, we kept over 120 acres of vineyards and on there is some Syrah and a lot of the varieties that I need for Curtis. Moving forward, we’re going to be more estate-focused, in the next several years.
rwb: So where are the remaining 100-some acres?
CC: That’s up behind the [Curtis] winery. There’s a mesa that runs up above the winery and that‘s the same mesa that Firestone sits on. So our vineyards are actually north of theirs, but contiguous.
rwb: What are you growing there?
CC: What I have planted there that goes into our program is: Cinsault, Viognier, Mourvèdre. We just finished a big grafting project there of Syrah, Grenache and Mourvedre.
rwb: So this property, the Crossroads estate, Ambassador’s and Vogelzang make up your sources of fruit.
CC: Yes, that is correct.
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The Ambassador's Vineyard sits atop a mesa above Foxen Canyon Road. |
Cépage.
Curtis wines are approachable while maintaining good varietal typicity. The winemaker's intent, stylistic inclinations as well as vineyard and cellar decisions and practices play an important role in the finished wines. For Curtis, Chuck has developed a program of vineyard-designated Syrahs, and Grenache-based red blends, Varietal Roussanne and Viognier as well as a white blend.
rwb: There’s a phrase in your bio that tends to be polarizing when you bring it up in the company of wine geeks. That phrase is: “physiological ripeness”.
CC: [laughs]
rwb: It says: “His winemaking style requires physiological ripeness in the vineyard, followed by minimal handling in the cellar”. So, give me your definition, or what you consider physiological ripeness and extrapolate that to what it means to you in the context of cellar work.
CC: For me and what we’re doing here, that really comes in where we do a lot of vineyard-designated Syrahs and what I really want people to see is the differences in the site selections and the clonal selections in these sites or vineyards that I work with.
I definitely do not rely on Brix as a determining factor when to harvest grapes. I look at the tannins in the skins, the flavor of the grapes themselves and the color of the seeds. I look at the vineyard and get a sense for when it has given everything it can. And you also have to factor in the weather patterns during those final weeks of harvest and the final ripening period. I think, for me, [physiological ripeness is] more about flavor, seed color, and then you start looking at the numbers: acid, the pH, everything else.
rwb: So you don’t do any kind of polyphenol or anthocyanin testing or measuring. For you, it’s flavor and a feel for the site.
CC: Yes, exactly.
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rwb: So, is there a specific flavor profile you look for? CC: I’m looking to make sure there is not a sharp bite, or a bitter component, when I chew the grapes up, because that tends to carry through into the finished wine. So I want to have as little of that as possible. And if there is some of that character, then I may alter how I treat the fruit in the cellar: Be it a longer cold soak period, a shorter, warmer fermentation, get if off the skins quicker. Things like that which I can alter and work with given what I have here in the winery. |
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Crossroads House and Crossroads Vineyard sit on what what was once known as Firestone Meadow. |
rwb: So it sounds like you have a broad array of tannin management techniques like délestage, etc.
CC: Yes, exactly. Basically, what I have are two-story compartment tanks. One’s an open-top tank that sits on top of a small closed vessel right below it, so I délestage twice a day during the fermentation process and during the cold soak period and then very gently pump that wine back up over the top and flood the top of the cap, if you will. Those wines done in those tanks all get basket pressed, as well.
rwb: Do these types of methods, which seem to introduce a lot of oxygen into the must, contribute oxidation or result in some oxidative problems inthe finished wines or is that not a fear?
CC: For me, that’s not a fear at that stage of the wine. Once we get things pressed and settling and heading into barrels, that’s when I become more concerned and watch, more closely, the oxidative portion of the ageing. Some of these wines benefit from oxygen pick up throughout the barrel ageing process. I think the Rhône varieties can certainly endure a little bit more oxygen throughout the ageing process than Pinot noir. Certainly, Cabernet likes a little bit to kind of help polymerize some of those tannins and create a little longer, silkier finish. Syrah doesn’t have an overabundance of tannins so you treat it kind like a Pinot noir, to some degree. That’s how we do it here.
When I have a finished wine, and pour it into a glass, or a decanter or whatever it may be, it’s really interesting to watch the wine evolve over a period of time in that glass, because it does change dramatically. I attribute that is watching the oxygen uptake during the ageing process.
rwb: Another phrase that jumps out at me in your on-line bio is working “with—not against—what Mother Nature gives us”. Can you elaborate on that?
CC: We try and do the best we can out in the vineyard. If we an extended period of warm weather, we understand what that can do to the vine and take action out in the vineyard. I think we try to be fairly proactive and not just take what we’re given. We try to get away with a minimal amount of application of fungicides and pesticides. It’s more the sustainable model, I would say, out in the vineyard. But, yet, we’re in business, you know, and we’re not going to let Mother Nature ruin our crop.
rwb: So, the interesting question that arises is: With all the interventions you have to do to compensate for the vagaries of the climate, at which point are you just helping and at which point is the intervention too excessive?
CC: That’s a good question...
rwb: You’re saying that you don’t want to just take what you’re given. So certainly, taking what you’re given can be devastating in an atypical year in California.
CC: Oh, absolutely. I mean, this year, I’m sure you’re well aware that we’ve had some frost. We have no control over that. We did everything we possibly could and yet we still had some losses in some of our blocks. To the degree that we can be proactive and if we see stuff heading in a certain direction: like a build up of pest, we need to go in and treat it. If it [threat] is to a certain point where it’s going to be catastrophic, we’re going to take action. If it’s something that’s going to build up over a long period of time and reach an apex after harvest, we’ll let that go. [The distinction lies in] trying not to be too much of a farmer, but growing the wine quality as best as we can and kind of being minimalist, yet not taking the position that we’re going to do nothing [to intervene].
rwb: So that leads into another subject which is mentioned on the Curtis web site: and that is “seeking unique expression of the site”. Some people believe that is achieved at minimal ripeness and others feel it comes out at extreme ripeness. What’s your take on that? And, certainly, you’re free to add other dimensions to that.
CC: For me, stylistically, I head more towards that middle ripeness to slightly ripe. I don’t want to have excessive alcohol. I guess that’s a very loose term these days, because I’m not really sure what excessive is anymore - 16 [percent by volume] or more? A lot of the wines I make are in that 14% to 15% range and I think that is what’s normal these days - for small producers like myself.
It’s interesting, I think, because with the terroir you also have to look at the clonal selection that we have. Syrah Noir, in one site, may be better than another site, where we have the Chapoutier clone. What helps in our program, here, is that we have a couple of selections of Syrah Noir clone grown in different sites. I think what you do see is an influence of the terroir and the wines are very different.
I think that’s kind of exciting and it’s what I’m really trying to show people: which is that these wines can differ and what are the elements that can impact them and change them. A lot of what I do for these wines inside the winery may be somewhat similar (within a few degrees or so) but the larger differences you’re seeing in these wines are site-related as well as varietal- and clonal-related.
rwb: To you , what is the the ideal or quintessential character of the Rhône varieties from your part of the Santa Ynez Valley, or your end of the Foxen Canyon?
CC: I think these wines are rich in flavor. I think they have a lot of texture, a lot of character. I think they fit this New World style in that they’re very bold-flavored. Yet (at least for us and the way we’re doing them) I think we try and maintain some semblance of balance in the wines as far as alcohol and overall ageability [are concerned].
I think we try and make these wines in a fashion that really accompanies food. We have a couple of things that are very specific that, maybe, are more of an apéritif or a wine you could have by itself but a lot of [our wines] really show their colors when you have them with a meal.
Sun.
In many ways, Chuck Carlson is Curtis. The winery was a creation of the Firestone family, but Chuck is its original winemaker. He developed much of the vineyards which make up the Curtis estate. By calling the shots in the vineyards and cellar, he defines the style of Curtis wines and much of the brand itself. He uses his experience and knowledge of Rhône varieties in his part of the Santa Ynez Valley to make a style of wines which strike a balance - both stylistically and between appeal to a broad commercial base and appeal to the more esoterically-minded wine enthusiast.
Still, market forces are fluid and the climate is always in flux. Carlson's brief pensiveness, when discussing alcohol levels, suggests that he (like many winemakers today) tries to keep an eye on the current trends - if through the filter of experience-based perspective - while adhering to the brand's stylistic parameters.
Despite the recent frosts in coastal wine growing regions, there is no paucity of sun in California, especially at times when it can most negatively affect the vines. Carlson's 27 years of experience in the area are his best asset for capitalizing on the Central Coast sun.
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